Man, why did we hire that plumber...

[Snuffy]

Several hours later the Devs walk to the mic, dragging that damn plumber behind them...

Ok guys, a lot has happened over the last 24-ish hours. Hopefully this post will clear up everything. We decided it would be easy to make this more of a “FAQ” in style, since there were a lot of questions asked and a lot of answers given. So without further ado:

NB: Anyone that posts “tl;dr” will receive a one-day ban to start with. This is your only warning. If you cannot be bothered to read this thread, do not post about it.

WTF is the SF Design Team doing?
The SourceForts Design Team is a group of players who are essentially developers, without any specific technical skills or technical tasks to work on. Instead, they contribute ideas, participate in discussions, and assist in making decisions regarding v2.0. Currently, the design team consists of snuffy, entRo, Scatman, Master Dana, Kas, NocturnO, Monty, Fail, and RedXIII. Yes, they are all members of Suverin and/or were part of the old SF 2.0 leak. They were not chosen simply because they were in Suverin or because they were involved with the leak. They were chosen because they were part of the original “Haven” development team, and have experience with the concept behind v2.0.

How did we get here anyway?
A while back, when the "old devs" still were running SF, there was a group of people that didn't really like the way SF was heading. They initially started developing their own mod, called Haven, and even had a working alpha. However, their lead coder dropped off the face of the planet, taking Haven’s source code with him. They decided to keep working on the mod as much as they could, although they knew they would eventually need a coder and more resources. Sometime in the summer of '07, some of the SF Devs got involved with Haven, really liking the concept behind it. Long story short, the team decided that SF was pretty much dead-in-the-water development wise, and the best option would be to merge the two mods, with "Haven" becoming 2.0 and being remade from the ground up.

Fast forward a bit, new SF development team gets some coders, a modeler, and a new mapper or two, and rushes the release of v1.9.3. Realizing how poor 1.9.3 was, the team decides to develop 1.9.4 before putting its full resources into 2.0 (this would be December '07). HisChild continued to work on 1.9.4, with the mappers fixing some bugs in maps for 1.9.4. The concept artist (o_nobody_o) works on some stuff, Slice works on some stuff, flow of progress is pretty good.

Exactly where are we right now?
Since HisChild had more experience with the Source SDK, we decided that he would be the Lead Programmer for v1.9.4; Black, Commander, Khuskan, and Sayyan worked on the various bugs in the official maps. Right now, v1.9.4 of SourceForts is being wrapped up. We think we’ve finally gotten rid of all, or at least the majority of, the bugs in v1.9.3. Before we release v1.9.4, however, we will be conducting much more extensive testing than what was done for v1.9.3.

But what about v2.0? Well, since Zoc didn’t have much experience with the Source SDK at the time, we decided that he would start coding v2.0 from the ground up. We felt this would be a good learning experience for him, and we were right. He has picked up the Source SDK very quickly and has been making great progress. Right now, he has managed to get some of the basic SF features in, such as flags and capturezones (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9827/zocv30002my2.jpg), the beginnings of the scoreboard, and has even gotten blocks into the game. His next tasks include finishing the scoreboard, a block-spawning mechanism (most likely a gun of some sort at this point), and a block-freezing system.

Besides Zoc, our concept artist o_nobody_o and our modeler Slice began working on some of the weapons for Phase 1 of SourceForts 2.0. So far, Slice has finished the model for the SF 2.0 minigun (originally posted here (http://sourcefortsmod.com/boards/showthread.php?t=8771), final here (http://www.sourcefortsmod.com/boards/special/Minigun2.jpg) and here (http://www.sourcefortsmod.com/boards/special/left1.jpg)), and is currently working on the “flechette gun” for SF 2.0. He just posted a Dev Diary with some images of the gun, and everyone should check it out. (http://sourcefortsmod.com/boards/showthread.php?t=9470)

Now, a question from concerned community member Disturber:
Why are we still months away from an alpha (my analysis of the comments made here) when we are almost eleven months out from the leak and over ten months out from the major exits from the old dev team? I'm a little hazy on the time line, but it seems to me (again from posts made here) that the separate Haven project was active at least by early April of last year, if not earlier. The dismissive and vague responses are hurting you more than any argument that I (or nip, or Bobert, or TommieV) could possibly advance. You really need to explain this, and that was the original point of the thread, as staff shortages and source code loss still don't seem to fully account for the shortfall at a conceptual level -- classes not even roughly determined, etc. The lack of confidence has nothing to do with aptitude or experience; I think our concern is with your collective ability to execute.

So, why has progress on v2.0 been so slow? The short answer is that we haven’t been working on it for that long now.

The current Dev team only took over on October 6th, 2007. For the first two months we worked on v1.9.3. Zoc began working on v2.0 on December 1st, 2007 (or within a few days of the release of v1.9.3), and has made good progress so far. The code for v2.0 is much cleaner than the old SF code, and the clean code will make it much easier for our coders to add onto later. What Zoc is working on now is probably the most time-consuming part of the project: creating the basic game rules. Still, it is important to remember that Zoc, like the other Devs and everyone on this forum, has a life outside of SF and cannot spend all of his free time working on the project.

As to the “conceptual shortfall”, I’m not entirely sure where you’re getting that from. We already have the basic plans for the classes laid out, and as soon as we have them in a more understandable format we can share them with you. For those that missed it the first time, you can also check out our public design document, which contains a description of the gameplay in Haven.

Anyway, why haven’t we been keeping you guys more up-to-date?
Well, part of the answer is that we didn’t feel there was much to tell you guys about. To us, lots of posts saying “Hey guys, HisChild just fixed this bug that you guys have never seen before because it in v1.9.3” or “Hey, HisChild just fixed another bug!” doesn’t really mean much. There was the possibility of doing a “bug tracker” in HisChild’s user title like we did with v1.9.3, but for v1.9.4 we didn’t really have a clear number of the bugs, what with the constant fixing of bugs and discovery of bugs.

We were planning on doing at least two Dev Diaries, one with Slice’s new weapon and one with Khuskan and Commander’s first v2.0 map. However, we first showed some images of the map to our beta team, and someone leaked those images. The leak worried us a bit and we were reconsidering our media release policy. We initially decided that we would wait until v1.9.4 was out before we showed anything more from v2.0. The community, however, began to question what was going on behind the scenes with SourceForts; this of course erupted in the “wtf is the ‘sourceforts design team’ doin?” thread, which is viewable here (http://sourcefortsmod.com/boards/showthread.php?t=9456). So we decided to have Slice post his Dev Diary early. To make it more clear: yes, we posted the Flechette Diary now because the community was asking us to.

Closing thoughts…
We've structured our entire development process around allowing feedback. We are 100% insistent that the only way to judge a game is by playing it, and that's why we settled with a far less glamorous two phased release - so everyone could get their hands on it and provide feedback before we spent too much time and effort prettying everything up for a final release.

It's like… we know everyone wants to have their say, and we want everyone to have their say, but when people have their say we think they should be given the opportunity to speak from a justified ground. If we were to just post a load of ideas we were having, the community wouldn't be able to pass any more judgment on them than we can at the moment. We aren’t saying we're better than the community, we’re just saying that if you haven't tried an idea you can't judge it - it's like saying a style of music sucks when it's only been described to you. There is no plausible way that the entire community can test out every feature as we do, and it just the way things played out that resulted in the design team being purely Suverin/leakers.

Well, this has been quite a bit of text, and we’d like to thank everyone for making it this far. There may have been some things we missed along the way, and it’s ok for you to remind us of them. We just ask that everyone discusses and asks questions in a reasonable, mature manner (and uses periods and proper capitalization. Please, for the love of god, don’t give us huge blocks of text with no breaks.) Once again, thank you for reading this all the way through, and we look forward to working with the community in the future.

[porc-épic]

Can I join the dev team ~_~ It's not a good idea to make one clan the devs... They'll just make it to how they want to play it.

[Sayyan]

As has been said quite a lot, we've always been accepting applications to the dev team and the design team. Several people have applied to join the design team, although most have just been immature. If you want to actually be considered for the design team, sell yourself to us. There's no particular application format, just give us some good reasons why you would make a good addition to our team.

Also, the game is being built to be balanced and accessible to new players, as much as it's being built to accomodate league play. Of course we're building it how we want to see it built, but we're not just designing it for ourselves; it has to be fun for everyone or we're obviously not going to have anyone to play it with us!

[TheLouti]

Less flaming opinions more reasons.

-Black™

[Snuffy]

I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way Louti, but I guess we'll just have to prove you wrong

[porc-épic]

lol louti calm down a bit :)

[Sayyan]

I'd just like to make it public, so people don't get the wrong idea. That Louti's only purpose in posting is to slow development down and get revenge (even though at one point he was part of Haven and left). He said this directly to me on MSN last night, as well as refusing to actually just discuss the whole thing with me. So yea, pay no attention to the drunk Romanian. He's our little secret.

[TheLouti]

I don't want tio speak with men who fucked up my work, yeah that's right actually. Look how hypocrite you are and how "gna gna I have logs gna gna I can show you" hahaha that is pathetic and snuffy, believe me, I WILL show you you are wrong, I will.

[Sayyan]

If you don't want to speak Louti, then don't. We're happy to talk to you privately to resolve your issues with us, and always have been as you know. You don't win any favours by trying to slow development up. Innefectively might I add.

[porc-épic]

Louti's french isnt he? anyway how did they "fuck" it up louti?

[Sayyan]

No, he's Romanian. He just lives on the French/Swiss border. Becuase 2.0 died, his work was destroyed. Even though nobody actually killed 2.0, we just leaked, which really shouldn't be cause for a good mod to die.

If a game leaks, along with the design document, even at early alpha stages it shouldn't just die off. It's definitely not the end of the world; if Haven leaks it's only a knock to our pride for not having better security, it certainly won't damage the mod. (As long as the design document is with it, and people actually read what is planned.)

[TheLouti]

Like I already told you over MSN, I dont wanna speak with you, but with this community, imo you're not part of it, because you're just destructing it. So gtfo and don't talk to me. I never came and talked to you, so please do the same. Now try to organize a bit more Haven team because for what I heard it's very shitty, like your meetings (hahahah how surprising it is, reminds me of the news post we're having on SF front page, GG team go go go !). Last night you tried to impress me with your stupid useless softs, but man, join a team like Insurgency and you'll see what a real dev team is. SF 2.0 was one like that but way smaller. I'm not speaking about the mod concept itself, just the dev team.

Becuase 2.0 died, his work was destroyed. Even though nobody actually killed 2.0, we just leaked, which really shouldn't be cause for a good mod to die.

Hahahahhahaha It just died because all SF members quit (well the one who were developing actively, not speaking about hypocrits ones.)

you're just disgusting. it's a shame you display that SF Logo next to your name, you don't deserver it at all.

[Sayyan]

The old SF 2.0 had no structure Louti. Don't lie to yourselves, we had access for several months before we leaked. Even the devs admitted that there was absolutely no structure or design process really going on at the time.

And how might I ask are we destroying the community? By reviving a dead mod and finish off the final version of it to a reasonable standard?

[porc-épic]

How can making a realism mod be fun ^_^


edit: Just noticed I've been on these forums for a year.

[013109]

I'm learning bits and pieces of this story...haha. Never really knew so much went down :P

[TheLouti]

porc-épic like I said it was not about hte concept, jsut the dev team. It was fucking good organized, documented.
"Even the devs admitted that there was absolutely no structure or design process really going on at the time." that is to say Stieff, Khus, and that's all about it. I never admited it.
because it was totaly false.

you're talking about organization ? Haven never had some people quitting ? Like..... ME ? or o11oo3 ? How strange it is.

[HisChild]

sounds like you want your old position back and hate the ppl who are now in control

[TheLouti]

May I correct you ?

I wanted it back, I could get it I'm sure if I came and "Oh! Wow this sounds great I really would like to help you !!" that's what I basicaly did to have access to Haven infos in august
And tbh with your programming level that would not be hard.

Now I don't want at all, I don't need.

Oh and yes I hate them all.

[Haza]

Welcome, Haza.
You last visited: 10-09-2007 at 11:16 AM

= Worthless Community/Mod.

[013109]

you're talking about organization ? Haven never had some people quitting ? Like..... ME ? or o11oo3 ? How strange it is.

O shizzle my name! And you "spelled" it right with the new "o's" and all. :D

[02k]

That minigun needs better textures. srsly

What happened to Insurgency Louti? (Why aren't you in the dev team anymore? (Curious))

Hi Haza

[Billeh]

I'm learning bits and pieces of this story...haha. Never really knew so much went down :P

OH THE HUMANITY.

[Black™]

Why the fuck troll on a board where you hate us all. To be honest you got replaced, the game got leaked. Live with it.

[porc-épic]

offtopicish When did 1.9.2 come out?

[02k]

1 August 2006

[Muuhh]

A while back, when the "old devs" still were running SF, there was a group of people that didn't really like the way SF was heading. They initially started developing their own mod, called Haven, and even had a working alpha. However, their lead coder dropped off the face of the planet, taking Haven’s source code with him. They decided to keep working on the mod as much as they could, although they knew they would eventually need a coder and more resources.

I don't know why but this sounds a bit like "Aww man we have no source code for Haven anymore" "Hey let's just leak 2.0 and takeover SourceForts so we can work on Haven"

Correct if I'm wrong.

[Lagginator]

Did I ever tell you guys that my friends decided to make a super smash bros clan thingy called jackpot, and gave me the nickname, "Flare"?

[Billeh]

I don't know why but this sounds a bit like "Aww man we have no source code for Haven anymore" "Hey let's just leak 2.0 and takeover SourceForts so we can work on Haven"

Correct if I'm wrong.

Your wrong. In before reasons.

[porc-épic]

I'm looking forward to 2.0 even though I don't realy know anything about it...

[czar]

As has been said quite a lot, we've always been accepting applications to the dev team and the design team. Several people have applied to join the design team, although most have just been immature. If you want to actually be considered for the design team, sell yourself to us. There's no particular application format, just give us some good reasons why you would make a good addition to our team.

Also, the game is being built to be balanced and accessible to new players, as much as it's being built to accomodate league play. Of course we're building it how we want to see it built, but we're not just designing it for ourselves; it has to be fun for everyone or we're obviously not going to have anyone to play it with us!

Can I join? I Mean I have great ideas, but no technical knowledge. (Well I do but I can't see how DBase3+ can help you.)

[Sayyan]

The whole point of the design team is that you don't need technical knowledge to a be member. You just need to be extrmeley proactive with attending meetings and tests, open to having your ideas shot down, and read the forums a lot.

[porc-épic]

When do you have tests/meetings?

[Sayyan]

The most essential ones are Sunday evenings. GMT, we usually test, then the developers converge on IRC for the meeting. There are than other impromptu meetings (interally known as circle jerks) but Sunday evening GMT is the best time for most of the team.

[HisChild]

you seem to be forgetting the part where you receive the blessing of the devs ...

[Sayyan]

Ignore HisChild. He's just upset that we lock him in a cupboard whenever we make decisions.

[HisChild]

i dont mind being in the cupboard ... since you still let o11oo3 in there =) we're havin a lotta fun

[porc-épic]

you seem to be forgetting the part where you receive the blessing of the devs ...

Doing my GCSE's so I wouldnt have been able to do school days much and so I wouldnt have sent an app if meeting were mainly on school days.

[Sayyan]

Ugh, HisChild. Next time you should turn on the lights; that's not o11oo3.

[HisChild]

it is! i took a flashlight ... unless i'm mistaken ofcourse and it's a friend of her ... remarkable resemblance though =)

[Muuhh]

more like fleshlight ;D

[HisChild]

more like hugging ;-)

[zerocool]

I'm really curious about how much of the coding on 1.9.3. was Louti's and HC's, since you describe HC as a more experienced coder.

And the fact remains that 1.9.3. was flawed horribly.

[|daft]

tl;dr

[HisChild]

I'm really curious about how much of the coding on 1.9.3. was Louti's and HC's, since you describe HC as a more experienced coder.

And the fact remains that 1.9.3. was flawed horribly.

in total louti has fixed 3 bugs.

i know more where the bugs could be found since i already covered most of the code and thus knew which file handles what part. By zoc writing the code again he knows what lies where.

yes it was

[Sauce]

tl;dr
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3847/imagepg6.png |daft (http://www.sourcefortsmod.com/boards/member.php?u=3577) http://www.sourcefortsmod.com/boards/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
dont ban me.
Flag Defence

He's clearly asking for it.

[DougLombardi]

I'm sad to see that some people are counter productives. Very sad.

[porc-épic]

why did you use that guy from valves name?

[Sayyan]

Yes Doug, from France, with the same ISP as Louti. It's a shame your country men are so counter productive. Still, I'm afraid I've had to ban your account, for attempting to impersonate a VALVe staff member.

[porc-épic]

louti :(

offtopic: Can we have the wiki back?

[kaidus]

Wuff, the leaking of 2.0 and our losing the original haven source code were in no way related.

Anyway, for those of you aren't upset ex-coders, I hope this cleared some things up for you. I'll be keeping an eye on the forums over the next few hours so if anyone has any questions or wants more details filling in that may have been missed out, feel free to post and I'll do my best to answer.

[rawrr]

Doing my GCSE's so I wouldnt have been able to do school days much and so I wouldnt have sent an app if meeting were mainly on school days.

Just revise for your GCSE's and you will pass all of them with ease. I got 7 GCSE's and I revised a little but if I revised more I could of gotten better grades.

I would love to join the dev team, the problem is that College give me so much work that I don't think its possible for me to even join the dev team, also, I need to get my mapping skills up. Sure SF maps are pretty simple for the most part but I still think I need to get better. Tryed out the Crysis map Editor and its was fun but I need I can't figure out some stuff...

Well heres the fy map I made a few weeks ago for CSS.

http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/45456

[nip]

thx for this news post, wish you'd have done this without the need of the "wtf is the ...." thread, just keep the updates coming

The whole point of the design team is that you don't need technical knowledge to a be member. You just need to be extrmeley proactive with attending meetings and tests, open to having your ideas shot down, and read the forums a lot.

is it neccesary to be friend with everyone else in the design team?
i am active, i do surf the forum alot, also im avaible on sundays, but well yeah... it was kinda me who opened the "wtf is the sf design team doin" thread

[kaidus]

There is no requirment to be our "friend". You have to be mature enough to get along with the rest of the team.

Something to keep in mind is that numbers are quite limited. Too many people discussing one thing results in it being very difficult to draw any kind of definitive conclusion.

[RedXIII^]

tl;dr

Day, next step out of line I'll extend that to perma for you.

If you hate the team so much why would you want to waste your time just trying to stir shit? Seems like some people should get themselves something better to do with their lives...I can ban people all day when I'm sitting at work. So just think I'm getting paid to ban you, looks like I win here.

Just a little thought for everyone.

[nip]

There is no requirment to be our "friend". You have to be mature enough to get along with the rest of the team.

Something to keep in mind is that numbers are quite limited. Too many people discussing one thing results in it being very difficult to draw any kind of definitive conclusion.

in other words: dont even think of applying, well you could but yeah

[kaidus]

Not at all, my point is that a lot of people make it sound like something simpler than it is. Just BECAUSE you meet the basic criteria doesn't mean you are instantly accepted. A lot of other things are taken into account, things you can't include in an application, one of the most important things being "Is this person going to be one too many?".

[nip]

okay, well i might send an app in and see how it turns it

[Khuskan]

Can I join the dev team ~_~ It's not a good idea to make one clan the devs... They'll just make it to how they want to play it.

So would any over dev team. Modders make mods how they want to make them, it is irrelivent whome is doing the making.

[Sayyan]

Nip, to expand on kaidus' point, and still say the same thing as him: you don't have to be our friend to be on the team. A few members of the design team probably wouldn't get on very well with me if we talked outside of design meetings. However when we come together for meetings it's just about having respect for everyone else who is there and having the maturity to admit you're wrong in front of people at times, or stand your corner against them if need be. As long as you're mature enough not to try and start fights, all is good.

[nip]

just asking about this smpathie thing cause once u were refering to the sf design team as a gruop of friends that get along and know each other for a long tim, you can call them and stuff

[kaidus]

Conveniently enough, that IS pretty much the sf design team. Sayyan isn't design team though so they don't have to like him : ).

(Joking of course, there is no requirment)

[Oddjob]

Any idea how long it'd be till we get a response?

[Sayyan]

I'm afraid not, it isn't us copping out; we just have to work out the best time to invite new people, work out how many people we need and then weigh up each person.

[nip]

well let us know then, so you'll invite new people after the 1st phase release or before

[Sayyan]

Oh, if we start inviting it will likely be before the first phase. It will be done at a main meeting, so it will likely be around a weekend that they get picked.

[Jake]

First off.

more like fleshlight ;D

I lol'd.

Secondly, Louti I can understand you being upset. But why do you feel the need to come back after all this time, after working on a successful mod (or more I'm not sure), just to try and disrupt the flow of things here. You may feel that you want revenge for the "destruction" of your work, however if you really cared about the community members as you say... why would you want to repeat the destruction so we would never get another SourceForts?

[TommieV]

Since the other drama topic was closed Ill post here:
I want to apologise to the whole staff of sourceforts and its design and beta team.
I went a bit far and totally overreacted in the topic 'wtf is the designteam doin'.
Besides that, I think the team is in good hands now. In better hands it has been.
Again sorry for stimulating more drama.

[Sayyan]

Apology accepted with hugs an frags. Counter-apology launched for aggravating circumstances. :)

[Nocashvalue]

Since the other drama topic was closed Ill post here:
I want to apologise to the whole staff of sourceforts and its design and beta team.
I went a bit far and totally overreacted in the topic 'wtf is the designteam doin'.
Besides that, I think the team is in good hands now. In better hands it has been.
Again sorry for stimulating more drama.

tommie you may have a gold star for your wonderful loveliness

[SANTARII]

where is the design document? also is 2.0 called haven now bcus ppl are calling it that..?

[Sayyan]

Haven is an internal development name. The name isn't completely settled on, although it will most likely be SourceForts 2.0

[Snuffy]

And the public design document can be found here (http://www.sourcefortsmod.com/boards/designdoc/havenDDpublic.pdf).

[Nocashvalue]

where is the design document? also is 2.0 called haven now bcus ppl are calling it that..?

Think of it like a code name.
Similarly to how nintendo called the gamecube the dolphin before it was released, the thing we're calling 2.0 until it is released is haven. This is easer to say as we can say haven rather than the next version of sourceforts or whatever and it is clear that we are talking about 2.0 rather than 1.9.4.
When it is released, fairly sure sourceforts will be called sourceforts 2.0 - or, I think sayyan mentioned giving it its own unique title.

Suggestions on the back of a postcard kids-
SOURCEFORTS 2.0: THE RECKONING
SOURCEFORTS 2.0: THE 1x1x1s STRIKE BACK

[Lagginator]

I jsut call it "2.Haven", 'cuz that sounds cool.

P.S. nobody cares that I'm a Flare?!

[MasterDana]

There's no space between my name.. ):


Also clarifying (again D:< since the post says I did ) that I didn't take part in/approve of the old 2.0 leak. Don't judge me!



I'm hoping things work out and this "2.0 developement curse" isn't real. Here's to you guys!

[Billeh]

Think of it like a code name.
Similarly to how nintendo called the gamecube the dolphin before it was released, the thing we're calling 2.0 until it is released is haven. This is easer to say as we can say haven rather than the next version of sourceforts or whatever and it is clear that we are talking about 2.0 rather than 1.9.4.
When it is released, fairly sure sourceforts will be called sourceforts 2.0 - or, I think sayyan mentioned giving it its own unique title.

Suggestions on the back of a postcard kids-
SOURCEFORTS 2.0: THE RECKONING
SOURCEFORTS 2.0: THE 1x1x1s STRIKE BACK

SOURCEFORTS 2.0: THE RETURN OF THE 1x1x1

[Sayyan]

I'm afraid both 1x1x1 names given so far are out of the question. While they may be good names, we aren't prepared to put all the necessary work in to take us up to SourceForts 5.0, only to have to go back and work on SourceForts 1.

[Nocashvalue]

Sourceforts 2.0: The Two Sniper Towers

[Monty]

Wargasm

[Cokemonkey11]

Great words.

Thanks for the update SF!

[.Llama]

oh lawld the drama

ps:dunt ban, this isnt a tl;dr post

[Kellsch]

First of all, a big thanks to the developers for making a great news post that actually explains a lot.

Although I have to question the choice of the development team members. I'm wondering just how many suverin (or ANY clan for that matter) members actually know anything about developing a mod, and who has actually done any work. I don't have any way of actually seeing who has done what, but something tells me that a lot of the development team members aren't contributing actual material to sourceforts development.

Again, I don't know who's doing what, I'd just like to say that I've seen projects like this fail before when there are members of the development team that don't do anything. I'm referring to hackthissite.org, rootthisbox.org, and pretty much anything related to HTS. In the case of HTS, it was a website that failed, not a HL2:DM mod, but you get the idea. Worthless members do nothing but destroy the project from the inside out.

Thus, I'd suggest that some type of system be made available to the general public to show progress made by each member of the development team. (Maybe fogbugz has this capability?)


My second question is why no one actually seems to know what the status of the project is.
In the last two posts of this thread: http://sourcefortsmod.com/boards/showthread.php?t=9458&page=2 one person says that smoke grenade code has been completely removed and the other says that it is still in there, just not accessible to any player class.
I was under the impression that fogbugz was supposed to eliminate this type of confusion.

Overall, I'd say it looks like the development team is finally getting it together. Good work.

[kaidus]

Besides myself, there are no suverin members listed outside of the design team. I won't make any more points until I know whether or not you wanted information on actual developers experience, or on the design team's experience/skills.

As for the smoke grenade, it was implimented and then removed during the period before we had fogbugz. Lack of fogbugz isn't the only reason, however. Confusion/lack of awareness was caused because the smoke grenade served mainly as a learning experience and experiment for zoc. It was not a requested feature by the community or development team, but was initially liked so was left in. The majority of the testing and development team expressed a disliking to it in an informal manner after a few test sessions, and so it was removed. Because of all of this, there was never actually a thread on this specific topic and therefore only people who spoke directly to zoc were aware of this. There was no real reason to inform the majority of the team as to the specifics, as regardless of whether the code was left in or not; the weapon would be unavailable to players unless a server owner found a way to mod their server to incorporate it. I assure you that whilst this may sound disorganised, it is not the case for feature discussion and implimentation in 2.0 and 1.9.4 (apartt from the sgrenade obviously), especially now we have fogbugz.

Sorry for badly structured post, rushed it cause I want to go to bed >_<.

[kas]

Sourceforts 2.0: A tale of two bases

And members, the post about the design team being open for application wasn't meant as an invitation for people to post here saying "oooh, can I join?" If you want to be taken seriously as an applicant shoot us an e-mail detailing the reasons you think you'd make a good member.

Things like competitive experience, other versions of the game you played, basic source engine knowledge would all work in your favor, though they're not absolute requirements by any means.

If you want us to take you seriously, take your application seriously.

[Oddjob]

Sourceforts 2.0: A tale of two bases

And members, the post about the design team being open for application wasn't meant as an invitation for people to post here saying "oooh, can I join?" If you want to be taken seriously as an applicant shoot us an e-mail detailing the reasons you think you'd make a good member.

Things like competitive experience, other versions of the game you played, basic source engine knowledge would all work in your favor, though they're not absolute requirements by any means.

If you want us to take you seriously, take your application seriously.

To be clear, I was told to send my application in the form of a PM, due to the e-mail system supposedly being flaky.

In case it wasn't obvious, I personally take the request for applications very seriously. I have a lot I'd like to contribute, and a lot I think I'd be able to add to the team. I have a feeling you've done a lot more work than you've shown us so far, and I'd be more than willing to take up what would be my share of it.

On a different note, is there a place on the official site (not just various posts on the forums) that states that you are currently taking applications for the dev and design team? I'd have applied before if I knew it were a possibility, but I thought that had all been decided some time ago, with no plans for any changes. That may be something you want to do, if there isn't a statement already.

[Kellsch]

Besides myself, there are no suverin members listed outside of the design team. I won't make any more points until I know whether or not you wanted information on actual developers experience, or on the design team's experience/skills.

I wasn't aware of the difference until I read your post. Upon further examination of the original post in this thread I now understand the difference. I can see why development skills would not be necessary to contribute in creative capacity. However, putting a group of very experienced, competitive players in this position seems like it would skew the overall gameplay to a more competitive style.

I believe it would be a good idea to make sure that several people on the design team are recreational players. Although with the application system I guess it's all up to the members to apply.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Sayyan]

Kellsch, as has also been explained many times; the game is geared toward a competitive play style. However it's also aimed at being much more accessible to new players than the current incarnation of SourceForts. You can't have a competitive scene without players, and everyone is a newb at one point.

Also to avert any confusion, the game isn't solely designed for competitive play; it's designed to be fun whether or not your team has any communication going on. Of course it's impossible to eliminate the fact that an organised team against a horde of newbs will almost always win out.

[013109]

I should be on des team...cuz...They are all leet players. While I'm mid range/noob. Yea...you need a mix. :D

Also OJ for PR...

[KGtheway2B]

tl:dr

[Sayyan]

You were warned. Banned for a day.

[HisChild]

I should be on des team...cuz...They are all leet players. While I'm mid range/noob. Yea...you need a mix. :D

Also OJ for PR...

hey i'm also just a noob :p

[Billeh]

I should be on des team...cuz...They are all leet players. While I'm mid range/noob. Yea...you need a mix. :D

Also OJ for PR...

Too late, used that excuse already.

[Pastori]

I think the development has been slow because the current SOURCEFORTS DESIGN TEAM whatever has great difficulties to do anything any better than the old v2 team did. So they are afraid to do anything, or they are trying, but really can't show anything because it's so shitty and worse than anyone could have imagined even the previous v2 to be.

[Billeh]

Lul @ pastori. Still playing Second Life?

[stume618]

tl;dr

[HisChild]

tl;dr

ban =)

[Sayyan]

I think the development has been slow because the current SOURCEFORTS DESIGN TEAM whatever has great difficulties to do anything any better than the old v2 team did. So they are afraid to do anything, or they are trying, but really can't show anything because it's so shitty and worse than anyone could have imagined even the previous v2 to be.

Yea, the design document, models and leaked screenshots are a lie. :(

[Sayyan]

I think the development has been slow because the current SOURCEFORTS DESIGN TEAM whatever has great difficulties to do anything any better than the old v2 team did. So they are afraid to do anything, or they are trying, but really can't show anything because it's so shitty and worse than anyone could have imagined even the previous v2 to be.

Yea, the design document, models and leaked screenshots are a lie. :(

[HisChild]

Amfg Double Post

[Oddjob]

People, lets get this straight: the SF design team doesn't develop sourceforts. They come up with ideas, and the development team executes them. As such, theres no point bitching at the design team for lack of content, because they're not the ones that make it.

Trying to say that the design team is worse than the old dev team is simply idiotic. The *entire* purpose of the design team is to fix what the old devs lacked, a sense of common direction. They do not code, they do not model, they do not map, and so to say that they are worse than the old design team in terms of releasing content is misplaced blame, because they're not the ones that are supposed to be doing that. If you absolutely must blame someone for this (which I don't think you should) then you ought to blame the dev team.

That said, they are working as hard as they can, and it wouldn't really be right to blame them either. You can't ask any more of them than to show what they have, and if they're to be believed, then they are doing exactly that, to the best extent possible. I did not understand that the current design document was impossible to release, not due to the fact that they were being secretive, but that you can't just put a wiki on the front page. That does not excuse the lack of communication in other areas, but since the issue was brought up, the dev and des team have done a lot to fix that, and they have assured us that it will only get better from here on out.

A lot has been discussed with this, and I think most of us, on both the dev side and community side, are better off for it. However, continuing to criticize anyone at this point is getting to be somewhat ignorant and immature. If you can't take the time to see where all this has gone, then just ignore it all. Reiterating something that was said days ago, and that has since been reconciled accomplishes nothing. If you have something new and insightful to add, then by all means, add it, otherwise, STFU.

[The_R]

We already have the basic plans for the classes laid out, and as soon as we have them in a more understandable format we can share them with you.
So do we have a date we can expect to have class descriptions?


BTW,
P.S. nobody cares that I'm a Flare?!
I think nobody believes you.

[Billeh]

Maybe calling them a Focus Group could be more appropriate?

[Khuskan]

You were warned. Banned for a day.

You fool ross, how is he going to go about reading that reason for banning him.

[porc-épic]

SF 2.0: All's quiet on the testing front ¬_¬ (crap I know but I couldn't think of anything else also I cba with using sequel names)

[Lagginator]

You fool ross, how is he going to go about reading that reason for banning him.

I think he's smart enough to log out of his banned account.

[Kellsch]

Kellsch, as has also been explained many times; the game is geared toward a competitive play style. However it's also aimed at being much more accessible to new players than the current incarnation of SourceForts. You can't have a competitive scene without players, and everyone is a newb at one point.

Also to avert any confusion, the game isn't solely designed for competitive play; it's designed to be fun whether or not your team has any communication going on. Of course it's impossible to eliminate the fact that an organised team against a horde of newbs will almost always win out.

I don't think it's possible to gear the game to be competitive as well as make it as fun to play recreationally as it used to be, and help new players at the same time.
Most competitive players play with a small number of blocks, short round timers, and everything is therefore really fast paced. That doesn't work with new players. And of course, recreational players want to play with high block limits and longer round timers to make things go at a slower pace.

Now, I'm not sure exactly what other things will be done to gear SF towards a competitive nature, but I don't think that it's only the round lengths and block count. I imagine that whatever other measures are taken to gear SF to a competitive style aren't going to be as easy to change as simply modifying a server variable.

I'm not sure where it was stated or when it was decided that SF was going to be geared towards competitive play, but I'm pretty sure that it's a direct result of putting a competitive clan in charge of designing the game.


Also, I find it both very ironic and incredibly sad that in an attempt to stop "tl;dr" posts, there are actually more worthless posts being made. Instead of one "tl;dr" post, we now have "tl;dr", "You're banned", "lol, ban". Just fucking delete the post and ban the member. Also, every member that thinks they are so fucking hilarious by pointing out the fact that someone got banned, learn to shut the fuck up. I mean, it's not that fucking hard not to derail a topic.

[FuzionMonkey]

I don't think it's possible to gear the game to be competitive as well as make it as fun to play recreationally as it used to be, and help new players at the same time.
Most competitive players play with a small number of blocks, short round timers, and everything is therefore really fast paced. That doesn't work with new players. And of course, recreational players want to play with high block limits and longer round timers to make things go at a slower pace.


Guess what? There are no block limits or round timers in 2.0.

I think its very possible to make a game that satisfies competitive as well as causal players. Just look at Quake or Unreal Tournament, or even Counter-Strike.

Stop making assumptions based upon things that aren't applicable (1.9.x gameplay).

[Jake]

Guess what? There are no block limits or round timers in 2.0.

I think its very possible to make a game that satisfies competitive as well as causal players. Just look at Quake or Unreal Tournament, or even Counter-Strike.

Stop making assumptions based upon things that aren't applicable (1.9.x gameplay).

chill...

[kas]

A lot of people here need to learn to express their thoughts more concisely.

[Disturber]

Now, I'm not sure exactly what other things will be done to gear SF towards a competitive nature, but I don't think that it's only the round lengths and block count. I imagine that whatever other measures are taken to gear SF to a competitive style aren't going to be as easy to change as simply modifying a server variable.

Funny you should mention that, because I've been of the opinion -- for quite a while now -- that server variables are one of the truly neglected pieces of the puzzle. What I'd really like to see in a Phase I release for Haven would be a rich "functional framework" with relatively small doses of new media (like Rebel/Combine and wireframe weapons). Instead of releasing a finished game-play formula, release a full-featured config file generator (operating within the steam gameUI) that allows server admins to generate a matched set of client and server config scripts to tweak existing classes, create novel classes and adjust game play metrics at multiple levels. Under the hood, the development team could slap together beta-quality implementations of a host of different features, playstyles and player abilities (each with a few programmable settings). Sort of a bastard cross-breeding between traditional CTF, SMod / HL2 Substance, and Garry's mod. Admins can save game profiles and tweak them over time -- while comparing them to a default set of profiles (each with a slightly polished set of scripts) provided in the box.

This would leave the design team free to brainstorm ideas for use by the developers, which could be judged on the merits of the resources necessary to implement them. You can start some initial work on playtesting for stability, but leave much of the balance work unfinished and open to public input. You don't have to strike the perfect balance between noob accessibility and competitive viability; just let the "market" work that out over the next few months. If what's really needed is multiple game modes, each with a different emphasis, then so be it. This leaves room for both refinement and innovation within the community and should quickly identify any obvious strengths or weaknesses to a particular approach.

As work progresses with the second phase, you could prioritize new media development around features that are universally well-regarded. This seems to me to be the best way to avoid falling victim to the dangers of an insular design and development effort. Sure it would generate tremendous amounts of wasted time with whack configs that are laughably unplayable, but this is after all the same group of idiots who made a gigantic pirate ship for no good goddamn reason... :D It's certainly a lot of work, but perhaps not appreciably more than adding and removing the same features to the code base to playtest them individually, then wonder if elements that were weak when present alone might somehow work if delivered together.

[Oddjob]

A lot of people here need to learn to express their thoughts more

Fix'd. We have a lot of questions at this point. Unless you can give us some very detailed answers (which you may very well can't, and that's reasonable) then expect some long questions and thoughts. We obviously can't just ask "how do the spawn points work?" lest we get some vague response about how you don't know yet. The more detailed our questions and thoughts, the more likely it is that we get a good and helpful response. Obviously that's gotten results so far, so I have a feeling it isn't going away anytime soon.

[kas]

Your 'fix' completely defied/missed the point. I'm saying think about your post, maybe reread it before submitting. You'll usually find lots of fluff you can cut off, and 9 times out of 10 your thoughts will be much easier to understand.

[Sayyan]

Disturber said some stuff here.

I like some aspects of this idea, however I think it pushes to far towards a developmental version. Phase I shouldn't be a beta version, or a test version; it's not supposed to be raw, it should be a fairly polished game as it will be launched quite publically. It should be a good enough game to draw new players in, while still allowing people to experiment and see what works so we have an even better game by phase II.

However this doesn't mean your idea is neglected; because of the way we're developing the game (iteratively), a large majority of the variables in game (probably moreso than 1.9.x) will and do have server variables related. In the alpha stages this enables us to test many different styles of play quickly, in the beta stages allow us to test bugs more effeciently, and when we go gold, enable server admins to experiment with play styles.

We also have a very heavily commented FGD; having more information available about what can be done with entities will hopefuly help mappers to think outside the box and create interesting variations on the stock gameplay system.

[Vixen]

Can't we all just get along?

[HisChild]

we can :-)

[zerocool]

sayyan talks


I do understand that D&D team only would like to launch a working product, but I would also think that releasing a version with all the gameplay formula's coded into it would be a very good to do.

Since your coders are working at full speed it would be perhaps be the case that 2.0 gameplay would be done before full media is also finished. "let's face it, modeling just takes a hell of a job".

Releasing this product with little or no media would give the mappers a good opportunity to start making and testing maps. Even though your beta team and others could play a few games on the maps, nothing is better then letting it run on a server for a few days and let everyone of the community play on it.
Also once the models are done to be added in the final version, your gameplay would be improved resulting in your ultimate Sourceforts/Haven/ Animal Crackers game. :D

And this would also give much of the community who left a good excuse to come back here. They would re-install sourceforts on their servers, start clans, restart old ones etc.

This would also contribute for the competitive scene for the final version, since the community would have grown by then and start scrimming each other again :)

[Sayyan]

Read more Zero :)

That's the entire plan, and has been since Haven was announced. The first version of SourceForts 2.0 will only have gameplay changes, the only models that will be included are ones were extra are needed and will conform to the Half Life 2 universe (so far the minigun and the fletchette, as well as the maps we have so far).

The second version will include the visual refresh as well changes to the gameplay that were suggested by the communtiy after the release of 2.0.

From the first post:
We've structured our entire development process around allowing feedback. We are 100% insistent that the only way to judge a game is by playing it, and that's why we settled with a far less glamorous two phased release - so everyone could get their hands on it and provide feedback before we spent too much time and effort prettying everything up for a final release.

It's like… we know everyone wants to have their say, and we want everyone to have their say, but when people have their say we think they should be given the opportunity to speak from a justified ground. If we were to just post a load of ideas we were having, the community wouldn't be able to pass any more judgment on them than we can at the moment. We aren’t saying we're better than the community, we’re just saying that if you haven't tried an idea you can't judge it - it's like saying a style of music sucks when it's only been described to you. There is no plausible way that the entire community can test out every feature as we do, and it just the way things played out that resulted in the design team being purely Suverin/leakers.

[Disturber]

I like some aspects of this idea, however I think it pushes to far towards a developmental version. Phase I shouldn't be a beta version, or a test version; it's not supposed to be raw, it should be a fairly polished game as it will be launched quite publically. It should be a good enough game to draw new players in...

I understand and respect that empty sandboxes are marginally attractive at best (and generally contain cat poop); I would not want you to kick Phase II out the door without taking a fairly thoughtful stab at the final game play dynamics. But in the course of P1 development, when faced with a choice of hard-coding a particular variable and letting it float in a server var, I hope you'll float it -- that is so long as you can continue to keep the server overhead manageable in the process.

I hope to see some significant sandbox potential, even if the castle that comes up by default is perfectly fine. If anything, a better default config will raise the performance bar significantly for any alternate styles that get proposed; the surest antidote to a flood of spurious and unhelpful suggestions is to counter with the challenge to "do it yourself and let us know how it went." Likewise, if you remove some elements between Phases I and II, you'll be able to point to low utilization by the community to justify the action.

Thanks for the responses to my recent questions, BTW. There's obviously more that we'd all like to know, but we're generally content to see clear indications of forward progress at regular intervals.

[HisChild]

Disturber,

When we are faced with the question wether we should hardcode a variable or make it a cvar, wether it is client or server side, we will nearly always choose the latter. This is for simple testing purposes, as we can change the entire gameplay dynamics just by executing a config file that changes all these variables at once.

Another side of this story is that I (i'm not sure about Zoc) prefer to restrict the variables themselves then just leave them out. For example, there are at least 4 variables in 1.9.3 that can be altered only slightly. In the testing the altering was a lot more, yet it was restricted when it was released. The same will be done in Haven.

We try and implement as many features as we see useful and fun. However, this also means that there will be features that we at first see as useful but after thorough testing find to cause either a to heavy load on the server / client, are annoying, or are disqualified for a different reason. However, not all features are doable in the timeframe we have. Therefor it might happen (and this is more then likely going to happen) that some features that were planned are getting scrapped. This is not to annoy people, but only to make sure that those that we DO implement, are the best that we can make of them.

[Disturber]

Then we are in agreement. I'd offer hugs, but I smell of chum and haggis -- you gotta love those Friday buffet deals.

[zerocool]

HC and Sayyan wrote some nice words.



First, since when does HisChild know how to speak this proper english:o
I'm impressed!

Secondly I can't wait to play your whole new gameplay design myself :)
You can let the plumber come back now for what I care :P

[Jake]

HC just wins tbh.

[Draken]

Then we are in agreement. I'd offer hugs, but I smell of chum and haggis -- you gotta love those Friday buffet deals.

Nomnomnom haggis.

[Oddjob]

HC just wins tbh.

[IactoSophos]

Sorry to res this thread a little, but one thing has not been made clear. We (as in the leakers) had a copy of v2 ages before the mysterious coder for haven came along and told us about this idea he had. We latched on to it as we were going to release it as a mod that we could play and be good at, as the competitive scene in SF at the time was stagnant and everyone was too scared to play us. We were 100% sure that it was not going to be released in competition to SourceForts because that's not what we wanted. We knew SF was going to die after the release of 2.0 because we knew how terrible it was. Not just the current version, but the design decisions that would not be balanced for a long time.

Development for Haven was going well, we had an alpha version and a few maps on the way. The design document was beginning to take shape and the game seemed to be able to come out of alpha in a few months.

Meanwhile, we were compiling data for the leak. Every little bit of information we could get we wrote down. We made movies and screenshots showing places that we knew needed huge amounts of work. The only thing we were waiting for was the right time to leak. We had already discussed and decided that a leak would save SourceForts, as the current damage being done to the game we had played for over a year would have taken a very long time to repair, and the arrogance of the dev team was immense.

Then we got our lucky break; and the leak happened. Shortly after most of that had died down, Mr. Mysterious Coder disappeared. Soonish after that, the 'shoe' site shut down (a few of you will understand that) and Haven development stopped completely. This was about the time that I left SF and started playing 2142 much more, playing more matches etc. Just thought I'd clarify and give a timeline for those that don't know. If I've forgotten anything, do say.

[zerocool]

Somehow, I just knew this all along. But I'm too tired to even debate this topic anymore.

I hope for the dev team sake that someone like Disturber also is to tired to start the debate again.

Oh, send Azlan in for the lulz.

[Disturber]

But!..

If...!

K, turns out I am. :p

Interesting to hear the timeline though. Hadn't heard a good deal of what Iacto had to say in previous accounts. Thanks for clarifying.

[Billeh]

By mysterious coder you mean JLF?

[Louti]

indeed.

[FictiousWill]

Sorry to res this thread a little...

Yep, that's pretty much exactly how it went. It's a little worrying that you somehow think what you did was ok. You state outright that you had just started work on a separate project, and were convinced that SF was going to fail. So you destroy it by releasing unfinished work (and claiming the gameplay was bad - no shit, I wonder how Haven plays at the moment) and then you set up shop in the same place as the old game but with design decisions like 'no build time'. And then you turn around and say the old team was arrogant.

How can you possibly state the that the arrogance of the development team was immense? The only ones that posted on the boards were the ones that didn't work on the mod. That's pretty much how it is now, except now you're releasing absolutely NO information and claiming that it's ok because this time you're the ones in development land.

Why didn't you just start your own mod instead of destroying something you had no part in? If you knew 2.0 was going to die, why kill it? It doesn't make any sense. It wasn't for the sourceforts name, you had already named your project something else. Was it just so you could play forum admin to an existing community? Wanted to play game developer, then realized that at some point you actually have to make a game?

I've never done anything but create mod media when nobody else would, and apparently that was enough to earn some pretty venomous jealousy. I can't help but wonder what would be more interesting to look through, the SF2.0 folder at the time of the leak, or the Haven folder, right now. I have no idea what you have done (so much for your promises of non-arrogance and open development) but I'll wager a guess that you have a grand pile of nothing.

In the meantime, I'll follow KG's example and try to be a little more constructive. And no, there are no construct boards at the moment. We're making a game, so we don't need them at the moment.

Alright, tear me apart - it's what you do.

[porc-épic]

If I could I would sig that.

[Scatman]

This is embarrassing. We should all stop arguing over video games. We're making a mod, you're making a mod. That's great! I'd be happy to see you succeed, and if your mod is better than the mod we make, then fair play to you guys!

[Black™]

This is embarrassing. We should all stop arguing over video games. We're making a mod, you're making a mod. That's great! I'd be happy to see you succeed, and if your mod is better than the mod we make, then fair play to you guys!

QFT.

[RedXIII^]

I pretty much said that like yesterday in that other thread...

[kaidus]

Jesus tits, construct guys, it's the internet. We've realized that and grown up a bit, now it's your turn. No one cares anymore.

[FictiousWill]

You don't get it. You can't destroy someone's work and then turn around and say 'everything's fine, let's not fight. Just forget about when we screwed you over.' You know you ruined something that wasn't yours and you still live in the house you killed it in. For fucks sake, just say 'sorry'. You do that - I let it drop. It's a good deal.

But don't sweep shit under the carpet because you don't want to look at it. People care, otherwise you wouldn't have to deal with this. It's the price you paid when you did what you did.

[Black™]

Rofl you completely missed the point of the post. No one cares any more Will.

If you can't avoid continuing the argument just stop bothering to look at these boards. I would of thought that would be simple for you, but you're proving otherwise.

[Scatman]

Everything's fine, let's not fight. Just forget about when we screwed you over.


EDIT:

I pretty much said that like yesterday in that other thread...

People listen to me because you are a bum bum face and I am only a bum face.

[FictiousWill]

You can't even do it. Who's arrogant now?

[Black™]

No comment, I honestly am laughing right now.

[FictiousWill]

You're such a badass. Do you always laugh to avoid apology?

edit: holy shit, you're only 16. I expect too much I suppose.

[Azlan[!]]

Ficwill has a point though...You guys have nothing but release a shit, buggy version as devs. Its taken you months to make a bugfix, 2.0 doesn't have that much done. I understand things coming up, but you guys should at least be a bit farther than you guys are right now. If you're going to come say, "lol its the internet who cares?" then why are you in charge of a mod that was successful in the past. Not trying to "troll" on you guys, just stating facts. Still think we should get along. :)

[porc-épic]

will, off-topic but what was that thing in photoshop you posted about like a year ago. It allowed you to blend the two layers together not using the layer options or opacity. I think the example you posted was of a stone path and some sand and you blended it so the sand was in the stone cracks.

[FictiousWill]

Yeah, no worries. Hold alt when dragging the blend sliders in the layer properties dialog. That'll break them in half so you can blend over a range instead of a single value.

[zerocool]

The only thing I loled about was disturbers reply.

The only reason I'm not messing with this discussion is because I have a major exam on thursday.

If you guys are still debating this topic then I'll get involved to for the drama lulz.

Ok, I can't help myself, FICWILL IS RIGHT!!! NOW START FLAMING! HAAHAH

[Black™]

You're such a badass. Do you always laugh to avoid apology?

edit: holy shit, you're only 16. I expect too much I suppose.

Rofl, I have absolutely nothing to apologize for mate. I wasn't on the Developer team or part of the leak back then. Also with the way you're acting you seem like you're 14. Still sore over a event that took place almost a year ago.

You're forgetting some people, like Khuskan actually agreed with Haven taking over 2.0 IIRC. I think you need to go work on something related to Construct, instead of trolling boards which should have no meaning to you any more.

It's quite obvious no one will apologize, for what ever reason you feel they need to.

[FictiousWill]

There you have it folks. Enjoy whatever these guys make for you. Don't get your hopes up.

[Scatman]

http://www.priorycofe.surrey.sch.uk/curriculum/drama/Drama%20Logo.jpg

[Black™]

Lol.

[02k]

Hey guys, in about a week, 5 months will have past since 193 was released. Lets celebrate!

[Sol_Yurick]

ouch

[Black™]

Old addressed point, has been addressed.

Jump on the bandwagon some more please. It really isn't getting tiring at all.

[Billeh]

Close the thread.

[Black™]

Sure thing.

[kas]

I've never done anything but create mod media when nobody else would, and apparently that was enough to earn some pretty venomous jealousy.

"Never done anything but create media?" You also tried to get bunny hopping and rocket jumping removed from the game. You also made public statements about your intentions without consulting the rest of the development team. not to mention the whole former development team continually banning entRo from everything without ever giving a reason.

http://www.sourcefortsmod.com/boards/showthread.php?t=5589
http://www.sourcefortsmod.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3440

ahhh, classic sf drama ;)

[Stieffers]

...you still live in the house you killed it in.

My house burned down actually.